Posts by Cold Steel

20

Trinitiarian "proof-text" John 20:28 has some problems for "Trinitarians"

by booker-t in

all through my years as a jws and after i have always wondered about john 20:28 where thomas says "my lord and my god" to jesus.

i just could not find a suitable answer for this text to disprove the trinity doctrine.

i really never swallowed the jws intrepretation of "shock" by thomas something like "oh my god" but at the same time i had a gut feeling trinitarians were hiding something about this verse.

Cold Steel

Booker-T: At John 20:28 it Thomas says (Mou Kurious) so he explained to me Thomas may have been talking to Jesus but he was directing it to Jehovah God.

Yes, but what if Jesus is Jehovah-God? This is not to say he was the Father (El/Elyon/Elohim), but that Jehovah, or Yahweh, is the Son.

For example, God (El) walked and talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden. When he and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, the Father no longer could speak to man directly, but used an intercesor. This intercessor was Yahweh, who was born into mortality as Jesus Christ. It was this intercessor who spoke to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and all the other prophets.

Wasn't it Jesus Christ who was the Creator? Wasn't it also Jehovah who was the Creator?

Didn't Paul state: "[God, the Father] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Heb. 1:2) And "God, who created all things by Jesus Christ...." (Eph. 3:9) Thus, Jesus created "all things" because of his position as heir. But Isaiah writes: "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein." (Isa. 42:5) And, we read, "For by [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (Colossians 1:16-17)

And again, Isaiah: "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." (43:15)

Additionally, the prophet Micah (Micah 7:9) writes: "I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness." Here, Yahweh is described as both our intercessor (who pleads our cause), and our judge (executes judgment). In the New Testament it is Jesus who pleads our cause, for John writes: "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) And, "The Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Notice the reference to Jesus Christ "the righteous" and Yahweh's "righteousness." Then, in Psalms 110:1-2, which is the kicker: "The LORD saith unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Who is David's Lord? It is Yahweh. Here, the Father is speaking to David's Lord, Jehovah. Thus, the Father is not Jehovah, but Jehovah is the Son, our advocate, our creator and our judge.

This clearly is not Michael we're discussing.

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58

Evidence of Jesus being Married?

by cantleave in

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/jesus-wife-fragment-is-not-a-fake-scientists-claim-9253395.html.

a harvard professor is claiming a fragment of papyrus seemingly mentioning that jesus had a wife is an ancient document and not a forgery, following a series of tests.. the text is written in coptic and contains a dialogue in which jesus refers to "my wife.

"karen king, a professor at the harvard divinity school, writes in the harvard theological review that the papyrus is almost certainly a product of ancient christians and probably dates to eighth-century egypt, based on carbon dating and chemical tests on the ink.. none of the testing has produced any evidence that the fragment is a modern fabrication or forgery, prof king and her team concluded.. the fragment, which has some legible lines on the front and on the back, contains the words: jesus said to them, my wife .... she will also be my disciple.. james yardley from columbia university, and alexis hagadorn from columbia university libraries, used a technique called micro-raman spectroscopy to determine that the carbon character of the ink matched samples of other papyri that date from the first to eighth centuries ce.. malcolm choat from macquarie university examined the fragment at hds and offered an independent assessment of the handwriting.. prof king first announced the existence of the fragment in september 2012, at the international coptic congress in rome, where she dubbed it "the gospel of jesus's wife.".

Cold Steel

"Brown University Professor Leo Depuydt, in an analysis also published Thursday by the Harvard Theological Review, remains unconvinced and argues the text contains grammatical errors that a native Coptic speaker would not make."

Well, perhaps a native Coptic speaker didn't write the document.

What possible difference does it make whether Jesus was married or not, or whether he had brothers or sisters? We are all children of God and we marry. Jesus was the only begotten Son of the Father. If we discovered evidence that Jesus was married, would that cause Christianity to collapse??

Mary was certainly one of Jesus' main confidants, and there were times when the apostles were clearly agitated because Jesus showed more of a deference to her than them (according to a number of apocryphal documents). The scripture states: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:16-17) Thus, despite what the Watchtower authorities say, becoming angels in heaven is nothing compared to this exalted potential. My point is that if we marry, and yet have the potential to become like Christ, then why couldn't Christ have been married? Paul also wrote: "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." (Hebrews 1:4)

So when Jesus said that there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the resurrection, this didn't mean that there would be no marriage in Heaven, but that marriages themselves couldn't happen in the resurrection; they have to happen either in this life or before the resurrection. Thus, if Jesus were to have a spouse in the world to come, he would have had to sanctify that marriage before his resurrection. It might also be the reason that Mary was the first one he appeared to after his resurrection.

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39

Why did God test Abraham?

by jws in

when jws come around with their articles asking "is god cruel?

", i often point them to genesis 22:2:.

2 then god said, take your son, your only son, whom you loveisaacand go to the region of moriah.

Cold Steel

It's just a foreshadowing of the Messiah. It's not needlessly complicated, nor is it difficult to understand. But that's the way the scriptures were designed -- to be understood by those who sought understanding and to be confusing to those who lack the desire.

Josephus quotes Abraham's explanation to his son:

“Oh, son, I poured out a vast number of prayers that I might have thee for my son; when thou wast come into the world, there was nothing that could contribute to thy support for which I was not greatly solicitous, nor anything wherein I thought myself happier than to see thee grown up to man's estate, and that I might leave thee at my death the successor to my dominion; but since it was by God's will that I became thy father, and it is now his will that I relinquish thee, bear this consecration to God with a generous mind; for I resign thee up to God who has thought fit now to require this testimony of honor to himself, on account of the favors he hath conferred on me, in being to me a supporter and defender. Accordingly thou, my son, wilt now die, not in any common way of going out of the world, but sent to God, the Father of all men, beforehand, by thy own father, in the nature of a sacrifice. I suppose he thinks thee worthy to get clear of this world neither by disease, neither by war, nor by any other severe way, by which death usually comes upon men, but so that he will receive thy soul with prayers and holy offices of religion, and will place thee near to himself, and thou wilt there be to me a successor and supporter in my old age; on which account I principally brought thee up, and thou wilt thereby procure me God for my comforter instead of thyself.” (Antiquities of the Jews, I:13:3.)

We don't know the source of this account, but it's significant in more than explaining Abraham's reasoning. Josephus was not a Greek, but a devout Jew. In the above account, which is clearly Jewish in nature, we see what the Christian and the Jews taught. First, that God is the Father of all men, not just the creator. Second, it soundly belies the doctrine that the souls of men sleep when they die. The author of the above, whoever he was, clearly believed that had Isaac suffered death, his soul would return to God and be near unto Him, and that he, Isaac, would be a "successor and supporter" to him after death. Thus, Isaac's spirit would return to God, the Father of all men, and there be able to watch over his father in old age.

The Adventist doctrine of soul sleeping is therefore dealt a decisive blow because the source of the above came from a Jew who was quoting it from an earlier Jewish source. It thus proves that the concept of man's having a spirit is not a Greek invention. And that proves that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is dead wrong on one of its CHIEF doctrines.

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39

Why did God test Abraham?

by jws in

when jws come around with their articles asking "is god cruel?

", i often point them to genesis 22:2:.

2 then god said, take your son, your only son, whom you loveisaacand go to the region of moriah.

Cold Steel

It wasn’t merely a test, but a foreshadowing of the coming of the Son of God. To wit, Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

The same thing is true regarding all sacrifices; that’s why God implemented it. In an extrabiblical account, an angel confronts Adam: “And then the angel spake, saying: ‘This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth. Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.’”

Animal sacrifices were introduced by God as a teaching implement: to teach His people about the ultimate sacrifice by the Savior, Jesus Christ. We see this throughout the scriptures. Note, for example, the prophet Zechariah speaking of the battle of Armageddon:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

In the day of their salvation, when the Beast Daniel and John spoke of, Jesus will appear to the Jews. To them, it’s the coming they had been waiting for for generations. In the midst of their tribulation, the Messiah appears in great glory (which is how the Jews have always expected the Messiah to come). They had hoped it would happen in the days of the Romans, but according to scripture, they were dispersed to the four corners of the earth. In the last days, however, they gather to the lands of their inheritance. And when their enemy is about to destroy them, they are delivered. Note the reference to the fact that the Messiah will be “pierced.” And the Jews will ask, “What are these wounds in thy hands,” and the Messiah will say, “These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.” (See Zechariah 13) Then the Jews will realize who their Messiah is and the entire land will go into a state of mourning.

Not only does Zechariah say the Jews will mourn for their Messiah “as one mourneth for his only son,” he says they will be in bitterness “as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” So you have two prophetic references in relation to the Messiah: 1) the only begotten Son of God and 2) the firstborn Son of God. This was written hundreds of years before Jesus, and yet in the prophecy we see a teaching that relates to Jesus.

God knows the choices we’ll make in life, but unless we actually make those choices, we don’t grow. He also knows what each of us will do in our lives and whether we will receive eternal life or lesser glories. People say, “Well, if He knows how it will turn out, why does He make us go through it?” It’s for the same reason a Navy Seal recruit knows he’ll make the grade, but he has to do it. Our experiences on Earth determines how and where we spend eternity, but we have to go through them for our own growth.

BTW, there are a number of extrabiblical accounts indicating that Abraham suspected that God would either stop him or, if he sacrificed his son, God would raise him up. The scriptures indicate he was a “friend” of God, and I suspect Abraham knew God well enough to know that Isaac would be delivered.

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34

Order in the universe

by Rattigan350 in

this topic was covered in book study last night.

some commented that the universe is ordered and the stars don't collide.. that has nothing to do with order.

it is more to do with that there is more space between the stars and planets and things go between them if they were in the same area.. and do they not consider that the many things that colliided with the moon to make those crators?.

Cold Steel

The Universe has handed us plenty of surprises over the past century and has kept book publishers busy correcting things astrophysicists thought they knew, but had to rethink. This isn't bad in the least, but it shows just how incredible it all is. Whether there is a God or not, what's out there is incredible, and we haven't even scratched the surface of what we think we know. There could be as many universes as there are galaxies, or even stars. Where does one draw the line?

If we do acknowlege that there is a God, it would be the height of narrow-mindedness to think that we're God's first creation, or the last. Christians and Jews who believe in a God of limitless power are faced with the question of why it would take God six "days" (or unspecified "eras" of time) to create this world when, otherwise, He could just speak it into existence. For that matter, why could He not speak the entire cosmos into existence with but a word?

The scriptures suggest that God created this world out of pre-existing materials, not ex niliho, as the churchmen concluded in the Fourth Century. The question, regardless, is why creation? If there is no God, no creator, then why does this all exist? Saying that matter has always existed is as problematic as saying that God has always existed. Matter cannot come into being, nor can it be sustained, without energy. And energy doesn't just happen spontaneously. And if there is a God, why would He create angels, worlds, man, plants and animals, and books? Why would He have no peers, a single, self-existent Being?

Then there are the paradoxes. Eternity----> Present <----Eternity. Even arguing the absence of time as we understand it, God would have had to be alone for a very long period of time before He acted to create. What was He doing during all that time? Here's a Being of matchless power, glory and intelligence, and He's the only one of His Kind and has existed for an eternity without creating a thing.

In Genesis, however, the Hebrew term Elohim is used, which denotes a uniplurality. Thus, we have phrases such as, "Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness," and, "Man has become one of us, knowing good and evil." Thus it's entirely possible that the creation of this earth was carried out by others under the oversight of God. Modern scholars refer to this as a heavenly council, references of which are found in many ancient Hebrew accounts and also the book of Job. According to many of these, this is when Lucifer and his hosts rebelled and were cast down to the earth.

However the Universe was formed, we can't be certain it's the only one. And if there is no God, it was a magnificent occurrance.

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14

Easy to believe the FDS gets direction from God if you do this. Did you?

by Wasanelder Once in

ok how many of you while a jw took the advice to pray on a problem and then open the bible and start reading.

did you seem to get "just the right scripture" that answered your prayer?

they encouraged that where i was.

Cold Steel

WasAnElderOnce: ...the advice to pray on a problem and then open the Bible and start reading. Did you seem to get "just the right scripture" that answered your prayer? They encouraged that where I was.

Yeah, I've heard of that one.

A few years ago, a mentalist by the name of Derran Brown got a group of people together, gave them a short form to fill out and an hour later returned with envelopes. He gave each person an envelope with their name on it. The people were amazed how well Brown was able to peg each one of them without knowing anything, really, except their names and maybe where they were from.

He has amazed people with his misdirection and his uncanny abilities, and each participant, when interviewed after reading his summation, thought he posessed some sort of psychic powers of intuition. In fact, all but one was stunned. But what was even more amazing is that, after he let them exchange them with others, they all realized he had given them all the same write-up! It turns out that it was just how the people read them. All of them were able to see themselves in the same write-up.

So no wonder this scripture miracle takes place!

8

Sparlock increases his Satanic army

by Splash in

it's been confirmed by other religions.. satan is attacking us though the toys!!.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/10736999/lego-is-a-tool-of-satan-warns-polish-priest.html.

splash.

Cold Steel

After seeing part of the Lego Star Wars, I realized that both Lego and George Lucas were in league with Satan.

40

Letter to Governing Body .Recorded conversations with Elders

by Watchtower-Free in

i found this on youtube...very good example of twisted reasoning by elders.. .

recorded conversations with elders by a former pioneer....a series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw8amuphqis.

Cold Steel

One question I've always had is why people bother with these meetings? When I bailed out of my church, I just stopped going. I didn't write any resignation letters, nor trouble those in authority there. True, they came to me, and even told me I was on a greased road to Hell (generally speaking). I've also read numerous near death experiences and I don't know of one where someone was asked which church they belong to. Many were asked what they had done for their fellow man, but no one was asked about their church affiliation, day of worship, how they believed on a certain doctrine or what they thought the name of God was.

So does one do it in the hopes that they'll somehow be able to change an elder's mind? Or do they find it redemptive for themselves in some fashion? I'm just curious.

For those of you who were once elders, did such "apostates" have anye effect on you?

9

To the angel of the church in Ephesus

by kassad84 in

the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:.

i know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for my names sake, and have not grown weary.

but i have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Cold Steel

I spent much of last night reading a book by David Pack, of the Restored Church of God. In the book, Pack, succssor to Herbert W. Armstrong, of the Worldwide Church of God, writes that Armstrong was the "church of Philadelphia" and that everything he, Armstrong, went through was foretold by John. Its theology is just as steeped as the WTBTS, and its members are just as determined that they are the fulfillments of God's choice people. To them, however, the issue isn't the divine name, but the Sabbath. Peck and Armstrong quote the scriptures stating that the sabbaths of God are a sign between Him and His People, and that anciently they refused to abide in those sabbaths. So everything they see in the book of Revelation is tied in to Seventh Day worship. In other words, they see themselves in every fulfillment, going so far as to say that Herbert W. Armstrong was the Elijah who was to return as stated by the prophet Malachi, and that the youth outreaches he performed was what turned the hearts of the children to that of their fathers.

In the same sense, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the GB see themselves as fulfillments of scripture, and in both cases, of course, neither has had it confirmed of God through angels or visions, and so forth. And though Pack argues that the name of the true church has always been the "Church of God" (confirmed by twelve references in the New Testament), the JWs always have the scripture, "Ye are my witnesses, saith Yahweh."

Pack's church, if one compares the two claims, stands on much firmer ground, but both are grounded in assumption.

13

GB when they die, there's a paradox

by pixel in

so, i was thinking about pierce's dead.

so, supposely he is in heaven, right?

and down here on earth, they are going to give a talk about him, maybe with his body present or his body already buried, but the question is, if his body is still here on earth, what went to heaven?

Cold Steel

DATA-DOG: [ Uh?? Didn't they just say the spirit went back to GOD???]

Ideed. This apparently means that we were all once in Heaven (or first estate) and that we're now here (in our second estate). When we die, we return to God. That's why the Lord told Jeremiah, "Before you were born I knew you. And before you came from the womb I ordained you a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) And it's why Jesus didn't correct the apostles when they said, "Rabbi, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" (John 9:3)

Thus, if man lived before he came here, it makes sense that he would not cease to be when he departed this life, but would return from whence he came. Many near-death experiences recount people meeting people they knew before they came to mortality, but who lived at different times. That's why many people feel that, in death, they feel like they've come home.

The JWs, on one hand, say that Jesus had a premortal existence, but they say he didn't go to heaven when he died. They're partially right in that Jesus did not ascend unto his Father until after his resurrection, but the scripture says that he went and "preached to the spirits in prison." (See 1 Peter 3) These souls were disobedient in the days of Noah and in other ages where they didn't have a full opportunity to hear the gospel in its fulness. These miscreants were thus able to live as spirits, but to be judged as though they were in the flesh. (1 Peter 4) When we die, we will not be able to return to the Father until after our resurrections (like Christ). Until then, we live as spirits in Paradise, which is a holding area between death and the resurrection. As the church father Origen said, it's a place of learning, or school of the spirits, in which everything they did on Earth would be made clear to them.